![]() We sit in the cave with our backs to reality, looking at the reflection of reality on the cave wall. So in that way it's a little bit like Plato's cave. JT: I make spaces that apprehend light for our perception, and in some way gather it, or seem to hold it. And I could swear there was a feeling I almost knew where I came from. RW: I want to ask, "what was your first memory?" I think this occurs to me because of my own first memory, which was of seeing sunlight on a wall. She still wore the plain dress with the bonnet, and had me wear the hat. ![]() They would cross themselves, right? I was involved with some of her views, which were a little bit startling to my mother, who was a modern person. My grandmother would make extremely hot salsa for them and read the Bible to them, even though they didn't speak English. Her son had raised avocados in the Escondido area and used Mexican laborers. She had a lot to do with my formative years. The Quakers are very liberal and tolerant people, but they are very conservative people too, and my grandmother was certainly part of it all. So many Quakers were also involved with the Christian Women's Temperance Union. And the Quakers were very much involved in the underground railroad and also looked at how things were happening socially in the industrial revolution. However the Quakers were very much involved in issues of women's rights and the rights of minorities. My brothers and sisters are older than I am by a good bit, and so I was left with my grandmother quite often. RW: This very early interest, at what age would say this started? And the idea that it's possible to actually work in a way, on the outside, to remind one of how we see on the inside, is something that became more interesting to me as an artist. The fact that we have this vision with the eyes closed is very interesting. Of course the vision we have in a lucid dream often has greater lucidity and clarity than vision with the eyes open. Telling a child to go inside "to greet the light" is about as much as was ever told to meīut there is an idea, first of all, of vision fully formed with the eyes closed. One thing about Quakers, and I think many Friends might laugh about this, is that often people wonder what you're supposed to do, when you go in there. My grandmother used to tell me that as you sat in Quaker silence you were to go inside to greet the light. I think it's not too different from a deer looking into the headlights-that quality of captivation. And I pulled them down and put the constellations along the ecliptic so that during the day I could see the stars. We had these blackout curtains in Pasadena, as a response to the threat of attack in WWII. I did several things in my room when I was very young. JT: Well I was fascinated with light right from the very beginning. RW: I think what lies behind my questions about your early years is that I wonder what first attracted your attention and interest to light. I feel like I've had several lifetimes in this life. It's not hard to believe in reincarnation. RW: I also heard you'd flown Tibetan monks out of Tibet early on. That's because you can get a license for gliding at fourteen, and now, for powered flight, at fifteen. My daughters got their licenses when they were fourteen. RW: I also understand you learned to fly a long time ago. RW: And in the war in Vietnam, I understand you did service as a conscientious objector. James Turrrell: I was a Quaker and then, for a while, I wasn't. Richard Whittaker: When I was talking with Michael in Los Angeles a couple of weeks ago I learned you were a Quaker. I met the artist at his studio on his ranch outside of Flagstaff. Eventually I found myself heading to Flagstaff, AZ. Although I was already familiar with Turrell's work from reading about it, the visit to LA underlined my sense of his unique place in the art world. I should go to Los Angeles to experience one of the artist’s pieces in a private collection there, The Second Meeting. ![]() Michael Bond, who managed Turrell’s projects around the world, was encouraging, but he suggested some homework. The prospect of meeting this remarkable artist was exciting and arranging it took some persistence. Gabrielson was an old friend of Turrell’s from Pasadena and, like Turrell, also a pilot. It was thanks to artist Walter Gabrielson that I was able to get in touch with James Turrell.
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